Defeating Another Criticism

Let me now directly answer the following complaint raised, and endorsed, in the comments section of this blog:

it makes no sense to imagine that an all-powerful God would need to devise this vast universal Rube Goldberg contrivance for the sake of creating life, rather than just doing it in one fell swoop of His mighty hand.

In the last message, I showed that 13.7 billion years of history that predates the origin of humankind not only poses no challenge to the Christian understanding of God, but actually reinforces such understanding. So now let me directly answer why it is that creation is so old and why it is that creation existed as long as it did without humans, why it is that God was so patient.

In that essay, I asked: “Why bother with 13.7 billion years of irrelevant history when what matters is the origin of humankind?”

Well, what makes anyone think that this history was “irrelevant?”

Y’see, the answer to this challenge/complaint has been looking you in the face the whole time – Because of us.

As I noted, “However we came into existence had to be because that was the way we came into existence. It’s a package deal.

That 13.7 billion years of history that predates the origin of humankind is actually part of OUR past. We could not exist in any other universe with a different past because it wouldn’t be our past and thus we would not exist. Other sentient beings could exist in these alternative realities, but they would not be us. After all, if we rewound the tape of the Universe back to the beginning, can we be confident that our solar system would have formed (as it did) and the Earth would have formed (when it did) and the life would have begin (as it did) and humans would have evolved (as they did)? I think not.

It’s a package deal. The ancient universe and “vast universal Rube Goldberg contrivance” exist because we exist and its all part of our past.

Once this is realized, we get a deeper appreciation for Gods’ patience. He waited almost 14 billion years for us to come into existence because the alternative was our non-existence.

He loves us that much.

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10 Responses to Defeating Another Criticism

  1. DATCG says:

    Michael,

    “…it makes no sense to imagine that an all-powerful God would need to devise this vast universal Rube Goldberg contrivance for the sake of creating life, rather than just doing it in one fell swoop of His mighty hand.”

    I want to make very clear, this type of comment is no my arguement. Nor, do I think the YECs would stand for such a flippant comment. They are more expert in this area than me. People with PhD’s studying this issue all of their lives.

    For now, I’m not convinced that science is correct for 13.7billion years. There are to many problems with Big Bang. Plus there are the issues of the Genesis account of Hebrew and traditional interpretations by Moses, David, even Christ himself.

    I’ll say more later on this subject.

  2. DATCG says:

    Michael,

    “Once this is realized, we get a deeper appreciation for Gods’ patience. He waited almost 14 billion years for us to come into existence because the alternative was our non-existence.”

    One more quick comment. What if men, fallible men are wrong? And the age of the universe is young? And second, whether the Lord creates us in a day, a thousand years or a billion does not determine our value to him. I think he loves us because we are made in His image. With his joys, his sorrows, his patience and his impatience at times, even his righteous anger if need be.

  3. DATCG says:

    Oh, I forgot to add one other thought.

    Re: “non-existence”

    I think that is an unprovable assertion. How do you prove this? Thanks.

  4. Bilbo says:

    Dat wrote: “One more quick comment. What if men, fallible men are wrong? And the age of the universe is young?”

    Then they are wrong and the universe is young.

    And second, whether the Lord creates us in a day, a thousand years or a billion does not determine our value to him. I think he loves us because we are made in His image. With his joys, his sorrows, his patience and his impatience at times, even his righteous anger if need be.

    Isn’t this the really important thing?

  5. DATCG says:

    Bilbo,

    “Then they are wrong adn the universe is young.”

    Thanks, then God did not wait.

    “Isn’t this the really important thing”

    We agree :) That’s why I wrote it to say I agree with everything you both have said, except I am unsure about scientist being correct about the age.

  6. Michael says:

    Datcg,

    As for, “Once this is realized, we get a deeper appreciation for Gods’ patience. He waited almost 14 billion years for us to come into existence because the alternative was our non-existence,” go back to this.

    The key is to realize just how personal God’s love is. He loves datcg, Mike, and Bilbo. And He loves us for who we are. In His eyes, each one of us is unique, special, like a precious gem. He knows everything about us, the good and the bad.

    Yet we exist because of our parents. And God also loves them. And they exist because of their parents. And God loves them. And on and on it goes back to the original moment of creation. That’s why I call it a package deal. We are all deeply connected to this creation. If our reality is a 14 billion old reality that spawned us, that is our history, that is part of who we are. There is no alternative way to bring us into existence.

    Perhaps it would help to ponder our identities some more and ask whether or not God could have “poofed” any one of us into existence without our parents. At first glance, it would seem this would be easy for an omnipotent God to accomplish. I don’t think so.

  7. DATCG says:

    Hi Michael,

    You said,
    “That’s why I call it a package deal. We are all deeply connected to this creation. If our reality is a 14 billion old reality that spawned us, that is our history, that is part of who we are. There is no alternative way to bring us into existence.”

    I still see this as a big IF. And I want to make clear. IF it is the reality, I have no hangups about it. I agree with your statement if todays scientific consensus is correct. Although, there is one single exception. The insertion of Christ into our history through Mariam. I’m curious, how do you think the Creator accomplished that? Or, do you perceive it a story like six days?

    “Perhaps it would help to ponder our identities some more and ask whether or not God could have “poofed” any one of us into existence without our parents. At first glance, it would seem this would be easy for an omnipotent God to accomplish. I don’t think so.”

    Uhhhmmm…. not sure what to think of this statement. Is it aimed at what you believe is a perceived ignorance on my part? I do not believe in “poofing” anything into existence from nothing. Ex Nihilo does not appeal to me as logical. He says, he is our Father and we are His sons and daughters made in His image.

    At this point I look scientifically at Cloning. Very Advanced Cloning of course. The kind that can be frontloaded or seeded from an original couple. Then you have the eight members of Noahs family. Population statistics work better with a catastrophic flooding event than current evolutionary history. Mitochondria do show some evidence of a bottleneck for Eve – or Three step-daughters of Noah.

    As to the Spoken word, as in he Spoke and light appeared, earth, the sun, night, day, etc.

    Well, we have technology today that allows us to speak and control many facets of our life. I can speak to my computer and have it place sales orders and a delivery to my front door overnight. Not “poofing” but pretty darn Fun! :)

    Is this a simplistic example of Voice Power? Yes, but it suffices as fairly good analogy I think for the future events if science keeps progressing. I also am not afraid to think out of the box a little about how Christ healed or stopped the storm. Maybe more than faith, it is about understanding the system and utilizing the correct words in faith to stop storms. If we are indeed a designed system by a super intelligence, then I imagine he knows every single nuance of our system and how to control it.

    I view the Creator as a highly advanced super creative intelligence that understands how life works not just scientifically, but socially.

    Another example future thought-experiment. Is it hard to imagine a Doctor speaking to a computer that does surgery on a patient remotely? We have voice activated systems all over the planet today from passwords to visual aide systems.

    I see your point of view Michael. I ask you to think about my view of the future. Extend this future-thought process out to 10,000 years from now. Where will science be? Engineering? Medical Surgery? Regeneration of body parts? Voice Recognitions Systems? And Voice Controlled Activated systems? Are we not essentially sending out electronic messages on waves to space travelers now? Everything we do proceeds first by thought, then by our tongue, expression, writing, then by action and creativity. We’ve learned to automate on massive scales products we intelligently designed.

    How not so for a Creator that created us?

    Now, imagine eternity. Whereby a Creator of the Universe speaks and all is done. Not by magic, but by his intellectual accomplishments in physics, math, engineering, biology, etc. All his eternal knowledge is unleashed on whatever created mechanism(s) and forces he designed during eternity to recreate, clone, generate whatever life forms he likes, including the weather systems. Whether it is Messengers or Us, or the most perfect Light before the fall. Or even a hurricane or tornado.

    People create, simulate physical tornados today on small scales. In fact, you can create your own mini-tornado. They used one in the famous movie not long ago. Are we not learning how to manipulate that which the Creator has done? So, 10,000 years from now. Will weather engineers recreate weather systems? And will they do it by typing or by voice? Or by buttons?

    Does this make any sense? Or, do you think my thought experiment to radical?

    We may not be to far apart on the science of creation, just on opinions of time.

  8. DATCG says:

    Michael,

    Not all the evidence is on side of long age. Much of it is in catastrophic or rapid creation events. That Uniformitarians were loathe to admit for decades, but now many new advances in theory are overturning areas important to the measurement of earths age.

    For example, Gold…

    Gold Mine may have been deposited rapidly

    “To better understand the Ladolam deposit, Simmons and Kevin Brown, a geologist at GEOKEM, a New Zealand-based geochemical company, studied the chemistry of the deep magmatic fluids in wells drilled more than 1 kilometer below the land surface. The water contained about 15 parts per billion gold, which is a relatively “modest” concentration compared to some magmatic fluids, Simmons says. Even so, at the current rate of water flow, the Ladolam deposit could have formed within just 55,000 years — compared with an estimated 5 million years for another giant deposit in Yanacocha, Peru, the authors reported in the Oct. 13 Science.”

    The same type of discoveries have been reported about Diamonds.

    Now, IF this is true, it overthrows 200yrs of Uniform beliefs in geology.

    I do not think Creationist are as “stupid” “stubborn” or “crazy” as some may think. Just in the last 10yrs, this type of research and discoveries are being made that overturn the established paradigm. This is just one of many examples where old beliefs once thought as facts and unasailable, are being challenged not just by Creationist, but by secular scientist.

    From CMI,

    “In January 2007, New Scientist quoted two other researchers who think the Ladolam deposit was formed even more speedily, either because of higher concentrations of gold or as the result of a cataclysmic event.5 Christoph Heinrich, a Swiss researcher who has studied gold deposits around the world, says he has found fluids locked in quartz crystals with concentrations 1,000 times higher than even what Simmons and Brown found. ‘If you spin the same argument that they are using with a thousand times higher concentrations, then the time it takes might have been a thousand times shorter—50 or 60 years,’ he said.

    Greg Hall, a geologist who has worked for the mining company Placer Dome, told New Scientist, ‘My gut feeling looking at Lihir is that it formed in the same time it took Mount St Helens to blow up—a month, a day, maybe as short as 5 hours.’ Mount St Helens erupted in 1980 and immediately became a working example of immense geologic change occurring in a short timeframe. Lihir, as a volcanic island, has been subject to similar processes.

    None of this means I believe in YEC theory – yet. I’m stll in the “can’t form an educated opinion” category. So I monitor all sides. I think the YEC RATE project was an improvement for them to answer dating methods. They must still continue to do more legitimate research.

  9. Bilbo says:

    Dat wrote: “None of this means I believe in YEC theory – yet. I’m stll in the “can’t form an educated opinion” category. So I monitor all sides. I think the YEC RATE project was an improvement for them to answer dating methods. They must still continue to do more legitimate research.

    Sound like you have an open mind on this question, Dat. Let me know if you become convinced by YEC, and I’ll look into it, also.

  10. DATCG says:

    Hi Bilbo,

    I used to be closed-minded, anti-Christian and frankly, hated the thought of God like many militant atheist today. I won’t go into my testimony, except to say everything I thought about the Judeo-Christian faith was wrong once I finally read the Bible seriously without contempt, anger and preconceived notions developed upon the opinions of others in media and among friends. In the same time period, I researched different areas of science with a more critical eye, not just evolution.

    I discovered the YEC position and decided to keep an open mind towards their ideas, conjectures and hypothesis. Afterall, I’d lived the atheist side and found it to be wrong intellectually. Is it possible I was misled or wrong in my assumption of faith in science in other areas? I pray for guidance as well.

    Since then many of the YEC’s objections to long ages and corresponding hypothesis regarding catastrophic events have become accepted and common knowledge in literature, including in scientific journals by secular scientist. Is acceptance of some YEC criticisms enough to turn over old age theory? No, but every year YEC criteria, criticisms, hypothesis keep turning up in secular media, overturning past scientific beliefs in different areas.

    Each time the YEC position is right and accepted, I pause and think keep watching.

    I am watching for Grand Canyon old age hypothesis to fall next – to be challenged within the secular system. If it does, it will be a major victory for YECs. I’m no expert, but according to fluid dynamics and rapid geological flood events studied and approved so far in secular scientific journals, I think YECs are on the right trajectory concerning rapid formations in Grand Canyon.

    If the Grand Canyon were to be overturned, it would be bigger than any story to date, bigger than dino-bird theory rejection. I think it would create a domino effect through geological sciences and a large shift may take place in our understanding of sedimentary layers through rapid flood events.

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