What Do Mass Shooters Believe?

The following is a guest post from reader, Isaac

Within a week’s time in 2019, three mass shootings occurred: in El Paso, Texas, Dayton, Ohio, and Gilroy, California. In most media coverage, two of the killers were described as white nationalists, while the third shooter’s Leftist politics and hatred of religion were mostly downplayed.

The entire reasoning behind ascribing a racist motive to the Gilroy shooter was that he had praised the book Might Is Right on Instagram. While the book does contain racist and sexist content, it’s not a book about race. It’s a philosophical screed against religion and the Bible, written in the style of Friedrich Nietzsche. In fact, Might is Right is the book Anton LaVey copied (without giving credit, of course) for his 1969 work of plagiarism, The Satanic Bible.

That means two of those three mass shooters were anti-religious nihilists. Most Americans, by contrast, identify as Christian in some way, and only a very small percentage are openly hostile to religion.

This made me wonder: could that anti-Christian, nihilist worldview be common among all mass shooters? If so, the rise in mass shootings in recent decades may be related to the sharp decline in faith over that same period.

Using Wikipedia’s list of American mass shootings with 10 or more victims, and using 1999 (the year of the Columbine massacre) as the cutoff date, I put serious effort into tracking down the worldview or religious beliefs of each of the worst mass shooters, as stated by them in their own words. I won’t use the killers’ names, but here are the results by location, in order of number of victims:

  1. LAS VEGAS (2017, 58 victims)

According to police quoted by The New York Daily News: “[the shooter] described himself as an atheist, and would often say things such as ‘your God doesn’t love me’ and tease [his girlfriend] for making the sign of the cross…”

His family members also described him as “uninterested in religion or politics.” So, atheist.

  1. ORLANDO NIGHTCLUB (2016, 49 victims)

The shooter was a devout Muslim who pledged allegiance to ISIS, as was widely reported.

  1. VIRGINIA TECH (2007, 32 victims)

The shooter “railed against his parents’ strong Christian faith” (The Telegraph, 4/19/2007.) In a manifesto mailed to NBC news, his rantings include, “…you Christian Nazis…by the power greater than God we will hunt you down.” The full text, available at schoolshooters.info, makes it clear that the so-called “power higher than God” is the shooter himself, and other humans like him: “I say we’re the Jesus Christs.”

  1. SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL (2012, 27 victims)

In a document entitled “Me” this killer explained his atheism and nihilism, using arguments commonly heard in the New Atheist Movement:

“Why do I oppose religion, as distinct from culture? It requires actions and encourages types of behavior which are based on delusions which don’t have any basis in reality…The more delusional you are, the less you’re able to be happy.”

“Morality seems no different than religion to me…all of it is contrived sophistry.”

This and much more is catalogued under the shooter’s name at schoolshooters.info.

  1. SUTHERLAND SPRINGS CHURCH (2017, 26 victims)

As was widely reported, those who knew this shooter described him as an outspoken atheist. As one acquaintance said, “He was always talking about how people who believe in God were stupid and trying to preach his atheism.”

On his Facebook profile, verified screenshots of which are on the web, he was part of the group “Atheist” and followed popular atheist pages including “The Friendly Atheist” and “The Atheist Republic.”

6. EL PASO WALMART (2019, 22 victims)

This very recent shooter shared a far-right “manifesto” online. There is no mention of religion in it, and no reliable source names his religion (although his divorced father was the author of a New Age book on the “power of universal energy.”)

However, screenshots of his Twitter account, show a reference to “God’s will” in one post. For that reason I am going to describe him as “Christian.”

  1. STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL (2018, 17 victims)

Transcripts and YouTube videos are available of this teen shooter’s interviews with police. In them, he claims not to believe in God, but heard a “demon voice” which he later described as coming from his “evil side”:

DETECTIVE CURCIO: Do you believe in God?

[SHOOTER]: I don’t believe in God.

DETECTIVE CURCIO: What do you believe in?

[SHOOTER]: I feel like there’s something.

DETECTIVE CURCIO: …When you say the word demon, do you think it’s an evil spirit or what do you think it is?

[SHOOTER]: A voice, demon voice.

DETECTIVE CRUCIO: Okay. But you never when to church or anything like that?

[SHOOTER]: No.

DETECTIVE CRUCIO: Why not? You don’t believe in God? You believe there’s something, right?

[SHOOTER]: I don’t believe there’s a god. I believe there’s something.

In a self-recorded home video, the shooter said, “My life is nothing and meaningless…I hate everyone and everything.” He also mentions hoping to see a particular girl in the afterlife. In letters sent from prison, the shooter explains that he believes the afterlife to be “sleep” and “eternal darkness or a flash of light.”

So we have a young atheist nihilist who thinks that there might be a vague, sleep-like afterlife, and may also believe in demon voices (to be frank, it’s clear from all sources that he is not at all intelligent.) Atheism, however, does not require clear reasoning— only a lack of belief in any gods.

  1. SAN BERNARDINO (2015, 14 victims)

The two shooters were a married couple, both of whom were Islamic extremists who wanted to become martyrs, as was widely reported.

  1. FORT HOOD (2009, 14 victims)

A military employee, this shooter was a religious Muslim who grew to hate the United States. (Bizarrely, the attack was officially declared “workplace violence,” although no one disputed the terrorist motivation.)

  1. COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL (1999, 13 victims)

The killers, both high school students, made home videos, now called “The Basement Tapes” in which they plainly talked about their atheism, as well as their justification of murder as part of natural selection. The transcripts, and their notebooks and writings, are archived at schoolshooters.info:

“Religions are gay…for people who are weak and can’t deal with life.”

“We’re not exactly human— we have human bodies but we’ve evolved into one step above you…We actually have [expletive] self-awareness.”

In a rare audio clip released from the tapes, the following exchange can be heard:

SHOOTER 1: “I don’t like you, Rachel and Jen, you’re stuck up little…Christian, godly little whores.”

SHOOTER 2: “Yeah, ‘I love Jesus! I love Jesus!’ Shut the [expletive] up!”

SHOOTER 1: “What would Jesus do? What the [expletive] would I do?” [pantomimes shooting a gun, makes gun sound.]

SHOOTER 2: “I would shoot you in the [expletive] head! Go Romans! Thank God they crucified that [expletive.]”

One of the duo created a t-shirt to wear during his murders, on which he wrote “NATURAL SELECTION.” The shirt design has been copied by other shooters.

  1. BINGHAMTON IMMIGRATION CENTER (2009, 13 victims)

The killer was an ethnically Chinese immigrant from Vietnam who believed the government was conspiring against him. His suicide note made no references to religion. A New York Times article from April 11, 2009, describes his family as Buddhist, although I could not learn to what extent the shooter himself practiced that faith, if he did at all. I have to go with “unknown” here.

  1. AURORA, CO MOVIE THEATER (2012, 12 victims)

On an online dating profile, this shooter listed his religion as “agnostic.” In his personal notebook, which can be viewed at themarshallproject.org, he dismissed the Bible as “mythical” and echoes the moral relativism of other mass shooters:

“Any and all action have no impact on anything…Evolution, the biological program’s codes is [sic] very difficult to fight.” 

“The reason why life should exist is as arbitrary as the reason why it shouldn’t exist…”

  1. WASHINGTON NAVY YARD (2013, 12 victims)

Though African-American, this killer was known to be a practicing Buddhist, as reported by multiple entities, including the LA Times ([Shooter’s Name]: An Adept Buddhist Chanter and an Angry Man With A Gun, 9/16/13.) His motive is unknown.

  1. 1000 OAKS (2018, 12 victims)

Despite an exhaustive search, I have found no reporting on this California shooter’s personal beliefs. But he did make these posts to social media, DURING his rampage:

“It’s too bad I won’t get to see all the illogical and pathetic reasons people will put in my mouth as to why I did it. Fact is I had no reason to do it, and I just thought….[expletive], life is boring so why not?”

“I hope people call me insane [laughing emojis] wouldn’t that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I’m insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is ‘hopes and prayers’.. or ‘keep you in my thoughts’… every time… and wonder why these keep happening…”

Here we have a young man wearing all black, mocking the concept of prayer and willing to kill “illogical and pathetic” people because “life is boring” and “why not?” Hard to see any belief other than nihilism there. A New York Times article quotes a former soldier saying that years earlier, the killer had given him a Bible, but detailed descriptions of his life after his military discharge and divorce make no mention of religion, only his interest in electronic rave music and dancing. Without a clear declaration of atheism by the shooter (and to avoid any accusations of bias) we will also categorize this one as “unknown.”

  1. VA BEACH (2019, 12 victims)

No one seems to have any info about the religion or worldview of this shooter, a 40-year-old African American man who attacked his workplace. His only statement was a polite letter of resignation from his job, he had no social media, and he was solitary and rarely seen outside of work. Since this massacre was very recent, new information could emerge when investigations are completed. For now, it’s “unknown.”

  1. PITTSBURGH SYNAGOGUE (2018, 11 victims)

The shooter was a white nationalist, whose Twitter profile featured the phrase, “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.” Once again we will describe this shooter as “Christian.”

  1. GENEVA COUNTY, AL (2009, 10 victims)

The killer’s suicide notes mention nothing spiritual or religious, and no reference to a religion, church, or personal belief was found in other reports about him either. Some news outlets describe a legal battle with relatives over an old family Bible, but it is implied that both parties wanted it for its monetary value. With no data, I will conservatively call this “unknown.”

  1. SANTA FE, TX HIGH SCHOOL (2018, 10 victims)

According to his own Facebook page, the shooter described himself as an atheist, and also said, “I hate politics.” According to a 5/18/18 article by the L.A. Times, he was also obsessed with the occult.

This completes the list of all shootings with 10 victims or more. That’s 18 shootings, with 20 perpetrators. Now we can look at the religious breakdown of the worst American mass shootings of the past 20 years, by order of casualties:

  1. Atheist
  2. Islamic
  3. Atheist
  4. Atheist
  5. Atheist
  6. Christian (White Nationalist)
  7. Atheist (New Age)
  8. Islamic
  9. Islamic
  10. Atheist
  11. [Unknown]
  12. Agnostic
  13. Buddhist
  14. [Unknown]
  15. [Unknown]
  16. Christian (White Nationalist)
  17. [Unknown]
  18. Atheist (Occult)

Although the sample size is small, remember that these are ALL of the mass shootings of the past 20 years with double-digit victims; the worst of the worst. These 20 individuals are responsible for a combined 364 dead innocents.

Looking at the above data, the big takeaway is that the ideological makeup of these mass shooters is very different from that of the general population. Outspoken atheists, a minority in this country, are the largest subset here, outnumbering all other ideologies combined.

In a country filled with religion, the most common ideology among the worst mass shooters is no religion at all.

———————————————

To create the previous post, I spent an unhealthy amount of time learning about the inner thoughts of mass murderers (including dozens who were not included in my sample due to the shootings being older or having lower casualties.) It’s only right that I share a few big takeaways from this unpleasant deep dive:

— People who describe themselves as having no specific religion but NOT as atheists — the infamous “nones”— are not represented at all on this list (although some of the shooters marked as “unknown” are probably “nones.”) Self-described atheists—not “nones”— make up the largest single ideology among high-casualty mass shooters.

— Whites are represented by 12 of the 20 shooters, which is right in line with the percentage of Whites in the general U.S. population. The rest of the shooters are a very diverse mix, with Latino/Hispanics not represented at all and nationalities from Islamic countries a bit overrepresented. This suggests that race is NOT a determining factor in the making of a mass shooter, but ideology is.

— Nearly the entire list is composed of people holding to just 4 fringe ideologies: nihilist atheism, occultism, white nationalism, and Islamic extremism.

—The only self-described Christians on the list are the two white nationalist shooters. However, an expanded list of white nationalist terrorists reveals a wide variety of philosophies among them, including atheism, agnosticism, and paganism, as well as unorthodox forms of Christianity. The white nationalist in Norway who murdered over 70 people, for example, worships the god Odin. My sample was limited to the United States, so he is not included.

— The high percentage of atheist and agnostic shooters persists when you expand the list to include high-casualty shootings before 1999, when mass shootings were much less common. Of the three deadliest mass shootings pre-1999 (Luby’s, San Ysidro, and the University of Texas) the shooters were non-religious, atheist, and agnostic, respectively.

—The pattern also holds if you expand the list to include fewer than 10 casualties. In fact, of the handful of mass shootings with 9 victims, 3 of them (in Dayton, Red Lake, and Roseburg) were not only anti-religious, but actively practiced Satanism or the occult. I gave up on including mass shootings with 7, 8 or 9 victims due to the list becoming prohibitively long; however, the ideological pattern remains.

— Although standard Protestants and Catholics are nearly nonexistent on the rolls of mass shooters, they seem to make up the vast majority of the victims, with religious Jews also overrepresented among the dead. In one account after another prayer circles, churches, synagogues, and individual Christians are targeted by mass shooters. In two distinct school shootings, the killer targeted a female Christian classmate who had attempted to befriend and be kind to him, but had then turned down his sexual advances.

— It also appears to be a myth that school shooters are commonly bullied by peers. In the cases where school shooters even attend the school they target, they are more likely to have been bullies themselves, acting cruelly to others for no reason. It is also very common for school shooters to have delusional fantasies of persecution with no bearing in reality. The myth of the “bullied school shooter” has caused a great deal of harm, as aspiring school shooters often idolize and romanticize past shooters, who they mistakenly view as martyrs fighting back against mistreatment.

— I didn’t collect hard data on this, but everything I’ve learned about mass shooters has also confirmed the reports by others that white mass shooters tend to be effeminate or physically weak males, often with no father at home. Claiming that “traditional masculinity,” “machismo” or “gender conformity” is behind mass shootings seems not only inaccurate, but downright dishonest, seeing that masculine qualities were in much more abundance in past eras, when mass shootings were nearly unheard of and boys shot pellet guns with their dads while pretending to be John Wayne. Given the facts, it is much more likely that a lack of healthy and natural masculinity may be a contributing factor to mass shootings.

— Gun control, and a focus on gun ownership, is something of a red herring. Most violent crime, including gun murder, has been declining since the early 1990s, at the same time that private gun ownership has greatly increased. In earlier decades, it was common for guns such as hunting rifles to be on school grounds (some of the earliest “school shooting” incidents were accidents involving actual guns used as props in school plays) because the idea of mass-murdering classmates was simply unthought of. Until the mid 1930s it was even possible for children to buy actual submachine guns through the mail, no background check required. What seems to have enabled the recent increase in mass shootings is not access to guns, but a willingness to use them to kill random people; a willingness that simply wasn’t there in the past.

— The plea to focus on mental illness also seems illogical, given that mental illness has always been present, and treatment for mental illness is believed to be much more effective than in the past, when mass shootings were rare. If these shootings are the result of increased mental anxiety, then what’s making us all go crazy in such a specific way all of a sudden? And how is it that most religious Americans are immune to this illness, which only produces mass-shooting affects in radical Islamists, nihilist atheists, occultists and white supremacists?

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81 Responses to What Do Mass Shooters Believe?

  1. Derek Ramsey says:

    I have been eagerly awaiting this post for many weeks. Thank you very much.

  2. Ilíon says:

    “Mental illness” is the only category militant secularism has — the only one it can allow — for trying to understand spiritual and moral illness.

  3. Dhay says:

    > To create the previous post, I spent an unhealthy amount of time learning about the inner thoughts of mass murderers

    Many thanks. The fruit is, your research and conclusions are far more informative that I had initially supposed they could be.

    *

    > Outspoken atheists, a minority in this country, are the largest subset here, outnumbering all other ideologies combined. …

    Self-described atheists—not “nones”— make up the largest single ideology among high-casualty mass shooters.

    Compare with recent Pew figures, which show few atheists and agnostics in 2019 and fewer in 2009 — and presumably there were yet fewer in 1999 at your survey’s start date:

    Self-described atheists now account for 4% of U.S. adults, up modestly but significantly from 2% in 2009; …

    https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

    Few (4%), fewer (2%) and yet fewer (<2%, surely); self-declared atheists have never risen to more than a very tiny minority of the population throughout your survey period; yet are "the largest subset here, outnumbering all other ideologies combined". Atheists are not just disproportionately represented but vastly disproportionately represented.

    > The high percentage of atheist and agnostic shooters …

    Pew again:

    ; … agnostics make up 5% of U.S. adults, up from 3% a decade ago; …

    And up from <3% a decade before that?: adding agnostics to atheists, the same disproportionate representation applies to “The high percentage of atheist and agnostic shooters …”

    > People who describe themselves as having no specific religion but NOT as atheists — the infamous “nones”— are not represented at all on this list (although some of the shooters marked as “unknown” are probably “nones.”)

    Pew again:

    ; … and 17% of Americans now describe their religion as “nothing in particular,” up from 12% in 2009.

    Whatever the (much lower?) figure for 1999, even the “nones” were few throughout your survey period hence should have low representation.

  4. nsr says:

    I do wonder at what point the militant anti-theists and the far Left are going to realise that reality cannot be shaped by feelings or desires, and that their “enlightened” views have had the opposite effect on human wellbeing (both individually and collectively) than they might have anticipated.

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  6. Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators – Christian
    Various clinic bombers – Christian
    Killers of doctors who perform abortions – Christian
    Mass shooters in New Zealand – Christian
    Anders Brevik in Norway – Christian

    it’s not surprising that you have cherry picked your data to try to convince yourself that atheists are evil. And I suspect that when given this information, you’ll try to claim that they “really weren’t Christian”. In that Christians vary all over the place, trying to claim a “no true scotsman” argument doesn’t work.

  7. Ilíon says:

    Come now! Simply everyone knows — for, do they not constantly tell us that it is so — that God-haters are far more peaceful, and honest, and loving, and rational, and moral than “God-botherers”.

  8. Isaac says:

    There is an independent investigation going on into the VA Beach shooter, the results of which are coming out November 13. That shooter has been a completely blank slate; the victims families are frustrated that they can’t seem to learn a single thing about him. Hopefully I’ll be able to chime in with an update then and fill in a little more of this data.

  9. Isaac says:

    Dhay,
    I think you’ve nailed the biggest surprise from all of this data; which is the total lack of typical evangelical, Protestant, or Catholic believers on this list, despite them being the vast majority of the population. I think you can make a lot of very safe predictions about how the West is going to seriously regret “outgrowing Christianity” in coming decades.

  10. Isaac says:

    I might as well share that I also started a similar list focusing only on school shooters, which I took a break from for my own mental well-being. But here’s the rough summary:

    1. VA Tech (atheist)
    2. Sandy Hook (atheist)
    3. Parkland (atheist)
    4. Columbine (atheist)
    5. Santa Fe (atheist)
    6. Oregon College (New Age, occult, anti-Christian)
    7. Red Lake (atheist)
    8. One-Got (nonreligious)
    9. Santa Barbara sexist killer (atheist)
    10. NIU (atheist)
    11. Amish school attack (unknown, said “I hate God” in suicide note.)
    12. Zawahri (unknown)
    13. Gang Lu (New Age, theist, Buddhist)
    14. Kip Kinkel (atheist)
    15. YWAM shooter (atheist, anti-Christian)
    16. Fryberg (none/unknown)
    17. David Attias (Jewish/New Age)
    18. Pearl HS (non-ironic Satanist)
    19. Carneal (atheist)
    20. Odighizuwa (Nigerian shooter, religion unknown)
    21. TJ Lane (atheist)
    22. Flores/Nursing School (unknown, but shooter mocked the faith of victims)
    23. Marshall County (atheist)

  11. Bill Hankel says:

    > I think you can make a lot of very safe predictions about how the West is going to seriously regret “outgrowing Christianity” in coming decades.

    Thank you for your efforts, Isaac! I have actually been saying this for years, and I’m very concerned about the country my 24 year son will be living in when he reaches my age. Far from the utopian society atheists espouse when they’ve “done away with Christianity”, I fear all h*ll will break loose and modern life will be very dangerous.

  12. TFBW says:

    @clubschadenfreude: none of the examples you give qualify for the list (of American mass shootings), but let’s disregard that for the sake of argument. Suppose that they do qualify, and that you’re correct in your assertion that the culprits were Christians. What conclusion do you expect us to draw from those parameters?

  13. Isaac says:

    I’m just going to dump some interesting notes here:

    Vladislav Roslyakov was a Crimean school shooter with 20 victims; this happened just last year.

    -His rampage was modeled after the Columbine shootings, and he seemed to idolize the Columbine killers (they are practically the patron saints of school shooters.)

    -Divorced parents, no dad.

    -Claimed to not believe in an afterlife. When his mother became religious, he described her church (the Jehovah’s Witnesses) as “a bunch of fools who sing and dance.” Burned a Bible prior to the shooting. By all indications a complete atheist.

    -In his own words, from a text message: “I have very atypical views. I do not think you understand them. They have always been a barrier in personal relation- ships with other people. I actually have no friends. I am a degraded nihilist. Complete indifference and contempt for the world.”

  14. Isaac says:

    Then there’s Bastian Bosse, a German school shooter from 2006. He tried to murder everyone in his school but only managed to injure dozens of people and then get himself killed. Not for lack of trying, though, which is why he is just as much of an example of degenerate evil as a killer who successfully massacres dozens.
    He also idolized the Columbine shooters, referring to one of them as “god.”

    -On his personal website, he parrots the common beliefs of nihilist, atheist school shooters so exactly that he might as well be reading from a script:

    “So tell me what is the meaning of life? There isn’t one! That’s why you have to give your life its own meaning, and I won’t do that by crawling up the ass of an overpaid boss or let Fascists, who want to tell me that we live in a democracy, jerk me around. No, for me there is only one more possibility now to give mean- ing to my life and I won’t waste it as I did with all the others before! Maybe my life could have been completely different. But society doesn’t have room for individualists. I mean real individualists, people who think for themselves, and not those “I am wearing a watch with studs and I am alternative” idiots!”

    More…

    “This revenge will be executed so brutally and ruthlessly that your blood will freeze in your veins. Before I go, I will teach you a lesson, so that nobody will ever forget me again! I want you to realize, that nobody has the right to interfere in others lives under a fascist pretext of law and religion!”

  15. Michael says:

    I might as well share that I also started a similar list focusing only on school shooters, which I took a break from for my own mental well-being. But here’s the rough summary:

    If you ever write this up as a guest post, I’ll host that one too.

  16. Michael says:

    club: it’s not surprising that you have cherry picked your data to try to convince yourself that atheists are evil.

    If you would have bothered to read Isaac’s intro, it’s quite clear he is not cherry picking (and I think you are projecting). Nor do I see any evidence he is trying to convince himself “atheists are evil.” As usual, you lash away while clinging to your straw man dolls, causing you to completely miss the target. Pathetic.

  17. Michael, why would someone go out of his way to try to claim that atheism leads to violence if he were not trying to claim that atheists are evil? And why would he choose to ignore plenty of instances where Christians caused harm?

    He limited himself to a certain type of event. Why? Because it gives him the answer he wants.

  18. Isaac says:

    clubschadenfraude said:

    “Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators – Christian
    Various clinic bombers – Christian
    Killers of doctors who perform abortions – Christian
    Mass shooters in New Zealand – Christian
    Anders Brevik in Norway – Christian

    it’s not surprising that you have cherry picked your data to try to convince yourself that atheists are evil. And I suspect that when given this information, you’ll try to claim that they “really weren’t Christian”. In that Christians vary all over the place, trying to claim a “no true scotsman” argument doesn’t work.”
    ————————–
    Cherry picking is what YOU are doing, since your examples above are completely random other than the fact that you think they are Christian. We are having a grownup conversation about mass shooters right now.

    But your bigger problem is that your facts are wrong.

    Timothy McVeigh was agnostic. Here’s his biographer, Lou Michel:

    “McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn’t believe in God, but he won’t rule out the possibility. I asked him, ‘What if there is a heaven and hell?’
    He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will — and this is using his military jargon – ‘adapt, improvise, and overcome.’ Death to him is all part of the adventure.”

    I’m sure you don’t know this, but anti-abortion violence of ALL kinds is responsible for roughly ELEVEN deaths in the entire history of the United States. That’s all incidents combined. And none of those incidents qualify as mass shootings. In any kind of larger data-driven analysis of total shootings, murders, or bombings, anti-abortion violence would be such a tiny share as to be almost statistically invisible. You bringing up clinic bombing and doctor shootings is an actual, textbook example of really sad, pathetic cherry-picking. There is no equivalence.

    Christchurch shooter (there’s just one): Let’s check his manifesto. He wrote his own Q&A:

    “Were/are you a christian?
    That is complicated.
    When I know, I will tell you.”

    Anders Brevik in Norway = Odinist pagan. He said that he “is not and never has been a Christian,” and that Jesus and his message are “pathetic.”

    (https://www.dagen.no/Nyheter/hedning/Breivik-mener-Jesus-er-«patetisk»-272638)

    At least take a humble tone and don’t sound so sure of yourself while lying (or, to be charitable, while repeating lies that you didn’t bother to fact-check because they confirm your biases.)

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  20. Ilíon says:

    “Radical” doesn’t really mean “extreme” (for most uses of “extreme”), much less does it mean “violent”; it means “relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough“.

    Thus, when a person “radicalizes” into or toward some philosophy or world-view or metaphysic, his over-all behavior becomes more inline with the fundamental nature of that philosophy or world-view or metaphysic. Or, to put it another way, he comes to more closely resemble his god.

    Thus, when a (putative) Christian “radicalizes”, he becomes more like Christ.

    Thus, when a (putative) Moslem “radicalizes”, he becomes more like Mohammad.

    Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators – Christian [a lie]
    Various clinic bombers – Christian [lacking proper nuance, intended as a lie]
    Killers of doctors who perform abortions – Christian [lacking proper nuance, intended as a lie]
    Mass shooters in New Zealand – Christian [a lie]
    Anders Brevik in Norway – Christian [a lie]

    And thus, when a God-Denier “radicalizes” (to a God-Hater), he becomes (even) more like the Father of Lies.

  21. Kevin says:

    Here club, I’ll help you out. From the OP:

    This made me wonder: could that anti-Christian, nihilist worldview be common among all mass shooters? If so, the rise in mass shootings in recent decades may be related to the sharp decline in faith over that same period.

    Here is the stated purpose for the blog post.

    Coupled with the stated purpose for the blog – countering the false propaganda of anti-theists – it is clear that the reason Michael made this post was not to make atheists look evil – it was to show that atheism will absolutely not lead to a better world, as anti-theists would try to have us believe.

    Such a tiny percentage of the population having such a huge percentage of atrocities is quite telling. Post all the “Christian” shootings you want (in quotes because your examples are pretty lame), but the difference in population per violent incident is very extreme.

  22. notabilia says:

    Thanks for the helpful link to the schooshooter.info site – it’s very well organized and informative, and gives some much-needed insight to the phenomenon of the school schooter/mass shooter adolescent male psychology, which is given only the most superficial treatment by the dominant Christian-oriented mass media in the US.
    Isaac’s research seems to be correct in showing a common orientation, which besides the alleged redemptive power of violence (usually a monotheistic hallmark) includes an antagonistic view to the coercive, authoritarian, anti-human theocracy of Christianity in the US and other European countries.
    These were obviously terribly deluded yet impassioned young men without the means to form a positive identity in this world. The Christian religion in the US is the obvious culprit in exacerbating this crisis of mental illness in especially troubled young males, and it commendable for this site to bring this terrible darkness of oppressive state-sanctioned religion to light.

  23. Isaac says:

    notabilia, A+!

    That is a fantastic parody of the way people contort themselves into ridiculous knots of nonsense just to justify their illogical hatred of certain groups.

    “dominant Christian-oriented mass media…” Ha!

    “redemptive power of violence…a monotheistic hallmark” Of course! Just as Jesus taught!

    “The Christian religion in the US is the obvious culprit in exacerbating the mental illness…” Obviously! Ever since Christianity was introduced to America in the late 1990s it’s been all downhill!

    Dude, you’re great. You should work for The Onion.

    Wait…you weren’t serious were you?

  24. TFBW says:

    @clubshadenfreude: “He limited himself to a certain type of event. Why? Because it gives him the answer he wants.”

    And those bad motives grant you license to dismiss the facts without argument. Checkmate, Christian bigots.

    Enjoy your comforting genetic fallacy.

  25. Isaac says:

    I “limited myself to a certain type of event” because the “mass shooting epidemic” was dominating the news cycle.

    Many atheists have offhandedly blamed “religion” for mass shootings, which you can now see is a complete falsehood. The narrative of the “typical mass shooter” being a redneck, right-wing Bible thumper has no basis in reality. That should be interesting to you.

    Sure, we could be having a completely different conversation, but right now we aren’t. Just because you lost at checkers doesn’t mean we cheated by not playing parcheesi.

  26. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Sure, we could be having a completely different conversation, but right now we aren’t. Just because you lost at checkers doesn’t mean we cheated by not playing parcheesi.”

    Atheists could be talking about how you are much more likely to die from a car accident. Or they could discuss how women getting abortions or delaying having children are more likely to die from breast cancer than being killed in a mass shooting. Indeed, a proportional and logically consistent response according to the relative risks would be rational. But no, they, by and large, support the riskier activities and blame Christians for statistically rare events without bothering to see if the evidence supports their claim.

  27. Kevin says:

    Well I’m going to assume notabilia is joking, because I can’t fathom someone being that deluded without being in a hospital somewhere.

  28. Dhay says:

    notabilia > Isaac’s research seems to be correct in showing a common orientation, which … includes an antagonistic view to the coercive, authoritarian, anti-human theocracy of Christianity in the US …

    Those “school shooter/mass shooter adolescent males” evidently share their antagonistic view of the “coercive, authoritarian, anti-human theocracy of Christianity in the US” (as you put it) with — with you yourself.

    I discern from this bad-mouthing of Christians in a political context (“theocracy”) that your favoured politicians didn’t get elected, your favoured policies didn’t get enacted; and in a democracy, at that, not in a theocracy. Sorry, but a lot of people freely choose to disagree with your favoured politicians and policies and vote the other way. Blaming Christianity (and theocracy) for them doing so is self-delusion.

    > … and other European countries.

    As a European I’ve no idea which one or several you mean. In Britain you might stretch to our democracy being part-way to an oligarchy — one person, one vote, one largish donation to party funds, one policy swing — but never a theocracy.

  29. Derek Ramsey says:

    “…to try to convince yourself that atheists are evil.”

    Atheists have made this logic error for ages, but the disproportionate representation of atheists/agnostics among deadly shooters is statistically significant. Many questions are raised, including:

    What is it about mass shooters that makes them overwhelmingly embrace atheism?
    Would mass shootings be minimized or eliminated if all children were raised as devout Christians?
    Is there a relationship between mass shooters, atheism, and mental illness?
    Is there a relationship between mass shooters, atheism, and broken homes?

    “In that Christians vary all over the place, trying to claim a “no true scotsman” argument doesn’t work.”

    An atheist cannot say “mass shooters are not true atheists because it is incompatible with atheism” because there is no unified atheist view against mass shootings. An atheist can think mass shootings are right or wrong. By contrast, Jesus explicitly forbid the use of violence by his followers. So I can rightly point out the contradiction between what Jesus said and what a mass shooter Christian did. That’s not a fallacy, that’s logic and reason.

    But even ignoring this, we still find that Christian representation in mass shootings is insignificant. When weighting mass shooters ideology by their representation in the general population (ignoring the unknowns), we get the following raw data:

    Atheists: 0.4 expected, 7 actual (16 times higher)
    Agnostics: 0.6 expected, 1 actual (2 times higher)
    Islamic: 0.15 expected, 3 actual (19 times higher)
    White Nationalists/Christians: 10.3 expected, 2 actual (5 times lower)
    Buddhist: 0.1 expected, 1 actual. (10 times higher)

    When weighting this data for population percentages, atheists are 83 times more likely to be mass shooters than Christians of all flavors. Depending on how the unknowns would be assigned, atheists are anywhere from 28 to 130 times more likely than Christians to be mass shooters. Moreover, even if we assigned all 4 unknowns to Christians, we would still find that Christians are underrepresented.

  30. Derek Ramsey says:

    NOTE: I used modern population numbers, where the number of Christians is lower than historical norms and the number of atheists are higher than historical norms. If the weightings were adjusted by ideological representation per year, this would further widen the statistical gap between Christians and atheists.

  31. in this case, Christians become radical *and* violent. This is not surprising since this supposed savior is quite violent when one reads the bible and realizes that this character is murdering all non-chrisitans in Revelation.

    And of course yuo want to claim that McVeigh’s Christianity is a “lie”. Unfortunately, he claimed to be a Christian and there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves. No one can tell a Christian from acts from anyone else (except perhaps going to church and praying and we know that people go through those motions), and since none of you can do what is promised in the bible for every baptized believer in Christ as savior to do, there is no reason to think you are Christians. It’s always fun to watch Christians lie and deny facts. Christians blow up abortion clinics, Christians kill doctors who perform abortions, Christians kill muslims, and Christians kill campers in Norway.

    I don’t hate your god since it is imaginary. I do get disgusted with Christians who are such poor liars and who think they have some right to lie to people, taking away their ability to make an informed decision.

    However, I do like when Christians lie because that shows that they have no more respect for their god and bible than I do. It shows that Christianity is a waste, and nothing more than Christians making up their god in their image.

  32. notabilia says:

    The notion that the US political system is a “democracy,” is absurd and puerile. The distorting and controlling role of money and its voluminous avenues for propaganda long ago produced what can only be termed one epic failure after another.

    Christianity in the US system is big business, with extensive methods of infiltration and control, endowed with incredible legal and financial advantages that support its devious, deleterious, and anti-humanistic social and political distortions.

    Not so much in Europe, of course, but there are religious remnants in each of the former empires and outposts that constitute outlandish and punitive influence.

    Let’s all hope that the next incipient school shooter can see that the world is trending to the European model of abandonment of religious strictures and illogic, albeit on these shores slowly, so these boys can see a better world around them as they negotiate the terrible shoals of adolescent male angst.

  33. TFBW says:

    Christianity in the US system is big business, with extensive methods of infiltration and control, endowed with incredible legal and financial advantages that support its devious, deleterious, and anti-humanistic social and political distortions.

    @notabilia: I frequently see the same kind of evidence-free apocalyptic rants online, but most of them point the finger at the Jews as the evil masterminds, rather than Christians. By and large, I consider the people producing those rants to be deranged beyond the possibility of productive engagement. I don’t want to be too hasty in dismissing you, though, so please let me know if there’s anything which distinguishes your anti-Christian ranting from the anti-Jewish ranting.

    Of course, if you’re only here to vent your anger at people who deny your worldview, rather than engage with facts and reason, then feel free to dismiss me with terms like “blind” and “sheeple”, since that would also tell me pretty much everything I need to know.

  34. Isaac says:

    “Christianity in the US system is big business,”

    Citation needed.

    “with extensive methods of infiltration and control, endowed with incredible legal and financial advantages that support its devious, deleterious, and anti-humanistic social and political distortions.”

    Multiple citations needed. Citing your fever dreams won’t count.

    “Let’s all hope that the next incipient school shooter can see that the world is trending to the European model of abandonment of religious strictures and illogic…”

    They already do see it. They are literally the results of that. There are tons of them in Europe too. You go post-Christian, you get school shooters. Prove me wrong.

    Come join us in the real world, where you don’t have to bury reality in a pile if quasi-mystical word salad just to cope with a friendly blog post that tells you things you don’t want to hear.

  35. Kevin says:

    in this case, Christians become radical *and* violent. This is not surprising since this supposed savior is quite violent when one reads the bible and realizes that this character is murdering all non-chrisitans in Revelation.

    Your very poor grasp of theology is not helping you look good here. And Jesus murders no one in Revelation. Do you know what murder is?

    Unfortunately, he claimed to be a Christian and there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves.

    Acting like he is somehow representative of Christianity is pretty stupid.

    none of you can do what is promised in the bible for every baptized believer in Christ as savior to do, there is no reason to think you are Christians

    Is there a guide somewhere advising atheists of your stripe on how to make completely ignorant statements and then strut like you made a point? Because you all do it. Quite embarrassing for you.

    Christians blow up abortion clinics, Christians kill doctors who perform abortions, Christians kill muslims, and Christians kill campers in Norway.

    A statistically insignificant number of them, yes.

    I don’t hate your god since it is imaginary. I do get disgusted with Christians who are such poor liars and who think they have some right to lie to people, taking away their ability to make an informed decision.

    But it’s okay for you to lie, I see. You’re also a liar to claim that God is imaginary, since you don’t know that and have no good reason to be so sure of it. Unless you have some amazing argument that no other atheist has…?

    However, I do like when Christians lie because that shows that they have no more respect for their god and bible than I do.

    Christians do adopt atheist morality too often, it is true. Who lied in this thread other than you and notabilia, the two atheists?

  36. Isaac says:

    In the interested of further making notabilia’s head explode, here are some more examples of how post-Christian, nonreligious, anti-Christian “enlightenment” is the default worldview of the typical white mass shooter. IN EUROPE:

    -Winnenden, Germany, 2009: The killer was a teenager and murdered 15 people at a school while dressed in black. When asked why he was killing people, he replied, “for fun, because it’s fun.”

    -Dendermonde, Belgium, 2009: A young man ran into a nursery and started killing and mutilating babies with a knife. He was described by classmates as a “goth” “film freak” obsessed with pop culture and horror movies. At his trial he blamed his parents, teachers, and society in general, saying, “if society is cruel to me, then I can be cruel to society.”

    -Munich, Germany, 2016: A young man went on a killing spree, starting at a McDonald’s. He was raised in a secular family with an Iranian father, but changed his name from Ali to David and started identifying as Aryan. Became obsessed with school shooters and mass shooters of all kinds. His motivation was revenge against people who bullied him, although his victims were mostly random teens.

    -Jokela High School, Finland, 2007: A teen killed 8 and wounded 12. Here is a quote from his own self-made online profile:
    “What do I hate?
    Equality, tolerance, human rights, political correctness, hypocrisy, ignorance, enslaving religions and ideologies, … political populists, religious fanatics, moral majority, totalitarianism, consumerism, democracy, pacifism, state mafia … human race.
    What do I love?
    Existentialism, self-awareness, freedom, justice, truth, moral & political philosophy, personal & social psychology, evolution science, political incorrectness, guns, shooting, BDSM, computers, internet, aggressive electronic and industrial rock & metal music, violent movies, , FPS –computer games, sarcasm, irony, black humour, macabre artm mass & serial killer cases, natural disasters, eugenics.”

    -Erfurt, Germany, 2002: 19-year old kills 17 people, targeting teachers who he blamed for his failure to graduate school. He was non-religious and had many friends, who described him as “just wanting to be famous.” Described himself as “Satan’s son” in internet chat rooms and was big fan of Slipknot and other macabre pop culture.

    -Kauhajoki, Finland, 2008: A young man shot and killed 10 people at a college. He was an atheist whose suicide note listed his “hatred for the human race” as his motive.

    Add those to the two examples from Europe I gave above, as well as Odinist pagan Anders Breivik. That’s just what I saw clicking around.

    If your weird theory is that Christian culture magically turns atheists and others (but not Christians themselves) into spree killers, then you’d have to assume that the problem would be trending downward, as Christian culture diminishes. There would have been more mass shootings in past decades, when Christian culture was dominant and gun control more lax. Instead the opposite seems to be the case.

  37. Isaac says:

    “and Christians kill campers in Norway.”

    Did you miss when I informed you that Anders Breivik worships the Norse god Odin? And hates Christianity and was never a Christian?

    It’s like facts and reality just bounce off of you. You are having a delusional conversation with yourself.

  38. Isaac says:

    “And of course yuo [sic] want to claim that McVeigh’s Christianity is a “lie”. Unfortunately, he claimed to be a Christian and there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves.”

    HE. SAID. HE. WAS. AGNOSTIC. On the record. Who are you lying to? There’s no one here who doesn’t know that you’re just lying about McVeigh. He told it directly to his biographer. I gave you the quote. There’s a whole book about it.

    It wouldn’t even be a good argument if McVeigh or Anders Breivik DID believe in God; even if you were telling the truth, it would still be cherry picking and horrible logic. But the problem is that you are not only lying, but you keep lying even after your lie has been thoroughly debunked, right in front of you.

    Who is this performance for? Does your whole world come crashing down if you admit Breivik and McVeigh aren’t Christian? Is this an ego thing? How does it preserve your ego if everyone can see you’re wrong, but you won’t admit it? That’s a whole lot worse than just admitting you got something wrong.

  39. Isaac says:

    You know what, club, I’m going to try to reach out and reason with you directly. I don’t know why. It must be compassion.

    This is something you said:

    “It’s always fun to watch Christians lie and deny facts. Christians blow up abortion clinics, Christians kill doctors who perform abortions, Christians kill muslims, and Christians kill campers in Norway.”

    I know you know what the logical fallacy of “cherry picking” is, because you incorrectly accused me of doing it earlier. Now read what you said up there. The Norway example is incorrect and false (he was anti-Christian,) but never mind that. How is your quote above NOT cherry picking?

    Here is the Wikipedia definition of “cherry picking”: “The act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.”

    Now, I would like you to tell me how your screed up there is not EXACTLY that. We’re trying to show you that your cherry-picked examples ignore the actual picture revealed by the complete data. You just keep pointing at your bowl of cherries. That is not an argument.

    I put a lot of effort into analyzing the most deadly U.S. mass shootings, looking at the complete relevant data set, including cases that don’t make my point. You don’t like the results? Either show me your own analysis, or get your lazy, unethical, dishonest, rambling fallacies outta here.

  40. Ilíon says:

    Citation needed.

    The Irrationales like to play that card; it deserves to be played back.

  41. Ilíon says:

    in this case, Christians become radical *and* violent.

    I don’t waste my time with liars or fools (which are worse than mere liars).

  42. Ilíon says:

    Abortionists *murder* innocent human beings — the most innocent possible. Killing an unrepentant abortionist is not immoral. Abortion abattoirs are places where innocent human beings are murdered; destroying an abortion “clinic” is not necessarily immoral, even if by blowing it up … the moral issue involves care to not thereby commit injustice against innocents.

  43. Ilíon says:

    Unfortunately, he claimed to be a Christian and there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves.

    Kevin:Acting like he is somehow representative of Christianity is pretty stupid.

    Moreover, the assertion that “there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves” is a lie, and everyone in the world knows it is a lie.

    And, as I recall, it has already been pointed out in this very thread that the assertion that “[McVeigh] claimed to be a Christian” is false; thus, the repeated assertion is a lie.

  44. “And of course yuo [sic] want to claim that McVeigh’s Christianity is a “lie”. Unfortunately, he claimed to be a Christian and there is no other way to determine who are the Christians except by what they say about themselves.”
    This is profoundly stupid. I would venture to guess club would also call Hitler a Christian based on….what? We should believe him because he said so because, supposedly, that’s the ONLY way to know? That’s the kind of “reasoning” no one takes seriously.

  45. Ilíon says:

    Isaac<If your weird theory is that Christian culture magically turns atheists and others (but not Christians themselves) into spree killers, then you’d have to assume that the problem would be trending downward, as Christian culture diminishes. There would have been more mass shootings in past decades, when Christian culture was dominant and gun control more lax. Instead the opposite seems to be the case.

    You’re using too much logic: God-deniers, like leftists (I mean, to the degree that there is any daylight between the two poses) have as “complicated” a relationship with logic and intellectual coherence as they do with truth and intellectual consistency.

  46. notabilia says:

    You claim you “need citations” to show you that American Christianity is big business.
    That about says it all.
    Then the Christian talk here gets all violent annd murderish, school-shooter level, so we’ll leave you and Ilion to your demented world. Keep up the research – it’s sure to help with the cries of Christophobia, right?

  47. Kevin says:

    Then the Christian talk here gets all violent annd murderish, school-shooter level, so we’ll leave you and Ilion to your demented world. Keep up the research – it’s sure to help with the cries of Christophobia, right?

    By that logic, your post makes you a Christian sympathizer. Seriously, you think people are wrong for analyzing violence?

  48. notabilia says:

    Sure, all of us can “sympathize” with those locked into dangerous cults, and we can try to approach the state of mind of horrifically damaged violent males like Luke Woodham and the abortion-provider murderer supporter Ilion, but after awhile, not so much – there’s a good life to be led away from all the demented warpage, and that road of betterment leads straight away from the horrendous genocide and killing and on-going abuse attached to Christianity.

  49. Ilíon says:

    Notabilia:the abortion-provider murderer supporter Ilion

    Ah, but like all God-haters, you’re a liar.

  50. Kevin says:

    and that road of betterment leads straight away from the horrendous genocide and killing and on-going abuse attached to Christianity.

    Such as the merger of the political left and atheism known as communism? Seems those two things don’t exactly lead to ideal circumstances.

  51. Isaac says:

    —-“You claim you “need citations” to show you that American Christianity is big business.
    That about says it all.”—-

    Yes, you should provide citations for any wild claim you make, if you want to sit at the grown-ups table. It’s called “not just making stuff up.”

    Here, let me show you something:

    Here is Fortune’s list of the top 1000 American big businesses:
    https://fortune.com/fortune500/

    #1000, at the bottom of the list, is Carvana, with a revenue of almost two billion dollars, and assets of almost one billion.

    The biggest, wealthiest church in America, by far, is Joel Osteen’s church, with revenue and total assets both at about 90 million:
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4489169-2017-Financial-Statements-for-Lakewood-Church.html

    Ergo, the #1 church in America is about 1/22 the size of the #1000 “big business.”

    Of course, Osteen’s church is an anomaly. The average church in America has about 75 people, and the average pastor’s salary nationwide is less than $35,000 a year.

    The average small business owner’s annual income is about $59,000 a year.

    Rather than being “big business,” American Christianity is not even on the level of “small business.”

    Just try to be right about one single thing.

  52. Ilíon says:

    … if you want to sit at the grown-ups table. …

    But see, that’s the thing: God-deniers (*) can never actually “sit at the grown-ups table”; for, in denying the reality of God, they also deny the reality of themselves. “I am not” is one of the inescapable logical entailments of “God is not”.

    “God is not” entails the denial of both premise and conclusion of “Cogito, ergo sum“; in fact, it also entails denial of the “ergo”.

    (*) both ‘atheists’ and ‘agnostics;

  53. Ilíon says:

    and that road of betterment leads straight away from the horrendous genocide and killing and on-going abuse attached to Christianity.

    Kevin:Such as the merger of the political left and atheism known as communism? Seems those two things don’t exactly lead to ideal circumstances.

    If the evangelical atheists ever again get their political-will, they’ll still be taunting us with the lies with which they love to comfort themselves, including the one about us having a “persecution complex”, even as they’re murdering us en masse.

  54. notabilia says:

    Here’s an assignment for you: how much money does American Christian management take from its members on a yearly basis?
    Another assignment: how much money in unfair tax advantages does American Christian management take from the US taxpayers each year?
    Another: how much direct business does Christian-oriented, Christian themed big business do each year?
    How many CEO robber barons describe themselves as “Christian”?
    What is the combined value, property plus everything else, of American mega-churches?
    You and your murder-supporter confrere Ilion are revealed in these comment hinterlands as lunatics. It’s been instructive, to say the least. Thanks, Internet.
    What’s next for Shadow to Light – more stupendous, helpful ombudsmaning of the atheist movement? It’s a joy to see such on-going concern.

  55. Kevin says:

    What does any of that have to do with the grossly overrepresented proportion of atheists in mass shootings?

  56. Ilíon says:

    Don’t you get it? The kiddie’s table is handing out “assignments”. If you don’t snap to it, there is going to be a tantrum!

  57. Ilíon says:

    …robber barons…
    Isn’t it cute how leftists and God-haters imagine that no one sees-and-understands their lies?

  58. Nice to see atheism produces brainwashed fanatics just as effectively as any fringe Christian cult.

  59. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Nice to see atheism produces brainwashed fanatics just as effectively as any fringe Christian cult.”

    Anyone can cherry-pick crazy nutcase examples in any group. It gets really interesting when their incidence is significantly higher or lower than expected compared to other groups.

    Let’s say I pick 150 Christians, 1 Buddhist, 1 Muslim, 8 Agnostics, and 6 Atheists from the general population. I keep picking a new group until I get a mass shooter. I tell you that guessing which one is the mass shooter will get you a large cash prize. If you guessed Atheist, I would pay you the prize roughly half the time. If you guessed Muslim would net you the cash prize roughly a quarter of the time. If you guessed Christian, you almost certainly would not win.

    If all Christians must be lumped together (“no true Scotsman!”), then Christian shooters are statistically significant only in the sense of their rarity. By club’s logic, Christianity is very effective. On the other hand, if all Christians should not be lumped together, then we can have a nice grown-up discussion about how their fanatical Christianity differs from normative Christianity.

  60. Isaac says:

    notabilia,

    I’m just going to say that I don’t know the answer to any of your assignments. So now you’re going to have to tell me the answers yourself. I’m sure you’ve got the numbers in front of you and weren’t just talking gibberish or anything.

    Also, not to change the subject too much, but would it be improper to ask how old you are? Where do you live? In your own home? Are you currently employed somewhere? Is English your first language? What atheist blogs and books do you admire? You don’t have to answer any of these if you don’t want to. I’m just intensely curious at this point. This conversation has been fascinating.

  61. Isaac says:

    notabilia,
    I’m just going to say that I don’t know the answer to any of your assignments. I have no idea. So you’re just going to have to tell me the answers yourself. I’m sure you’ve got the numbers in front of you, and aren’t just making up gibberish questions. I’ll wait.

    (Also, not to change the subject too much, but would it be impolite to ask how old you are? Where do you live? In your own home or somewhere else? Are you currently employed? Is English your first language? What atheist books or blogs do you most admire? Feel free to ignore these questions if you want, I’m just extremely curious at this point. This back and forth has been fascinating.)

  62. Isaac says:

    ^^^^ Sorry about the double post.

  63. Pingback: What Mass Shooters Believe (Illustrated) - Derek L. Ramsey

  64. Dhay says:

    Hemant Mehta’s 13 November 2019 blog entitled “The FBI’s 2018 Hate Crimes Report Shows That Atheists Were Almost Never Victims” tells his readers that:

    While any number is too high, of the 7,120 incidents documented by the FBI in 2018, “anti-atheist” (or anti-Agnostic) sentiment was the cause of only 6 of them.

    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/11/13/the-fbis-2018-hate-crimes-report-shows-that-atheists-were-almost-never-victims/

    The source Report tells us, in the ‘Religious bias’ section:

    Hate crimes motivated by religious bias accounted for 1,550 offenses reported by law enforcement. A breakdown of the bias motivation of religious-biased offenses showed:

    57.8 percent were anti-Jewish.
    14.5 percent were anti-Islamic (Muslim).
    4.1 percent were anti-Sikh.
    3.8 percent were anti-Catholic.
    3.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
    2.7 percent were anti-Other Christian.
    2.5 percent were anti-Protestant.
    2.1 percent were anti-Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Other).
    0.9 percent (14 offenses) were anti-Hindu.
    0.6 percent (10 offenses) were anti-Buddhist.
    0.6 percent (9 offenses) were anti-Mormon
    0.6 percent (9 offenses) were anti-Jehovah’s Witness.
    0.4 percent (6 offenses) were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc.
    6.2 percent were anti-other (unspecified) religion.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2018/topic-pages/incidents-and-offenses

    My Pew figures say that atheists are 4% of the population, agnostics are 5%, together they are 9% of the US population. But this Report says they are only 0.4% of the victims.

    Christians are 65% of the population (7.22 x that 9% of atheists/agnostics) but 15.5% of the victims. If you scale up that 0.4% by 7.22 times to find out what it would be if the 9% were 65%, the same number as Christians, you find that whereas Christians are 15.5% of the victims, atheists/agnostics would be a mere 0.29% of the victims. On a back-of-envelope calculation, Christians are 54 times more likely to be the victim of a religiously (or anti-atheist) hate crime than atheists and agnostics are.

    Which Mehta obviously realises and acknowledges:

    Of those six crimes, one was an assault. The others involved theft (1) or vandalism (3). While there’s a huge societal stigma against atheists, we suffer from fewer hate crimes than people of pretty much every other non-Christian group. (At least when these crimes have an obvious motive.) People may not want to vote for us and they may not trust us, but they don’t typically want to be violent toward us, either.

    These are interesting figures to compare and contrast with Derek Ramsey’s above at:

    https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/what-do-mass-shooters-believe/#comment-33850

  65. Ilíon says:

    … then we can have a nice grown-up discussion about how their fanatical Christianity differs from normative Christianity.

    At the same time, if “fanatical” isn’t being used in a tendentious manner, then “fanatical Christianity” *just is* “normative Christianity”, for a “fanatical” Christian is one who takes seriously what he claims to believe.

    You know, same as with ‘atheists’ … and, for that matter, Moslems.

  66. Ilíon says:

    While any number is too high, of the 7,120 incidents documented by the FBI in 2018, “anti-atheist” (or anti-Agnostic) sentiment was the cause of only 6 of them.

    Well, that kind of blows a whole is someone’s talking point, doesn’t it?

    57.8 percent were anti-Jewish.

    Some (unknown) percentage of those are *real* … perpetrated mostly by Moslems or black persons. The rest, and probably a majority, are hoaxes perpetrated by leftist God-haters with Jewish ancestors.

    14.5 percent were anti-Islamic (Muslim).

    Most of these with be hoaxes perpetrated by Moslems.

  67. Dhay says:

    A silly blunder on my part: 7.22 x 0.4 is of course 2.9 (not 0.29); making Christians 5.4 times (not 54 times) more likely to be the victim of a religiously (or anti-atheist) hate crime than are atheists and agnostics.

  68. Dhay says:

    Ilíon > “57.8 percent were anti-Jewish.”
    Some (unknown) percentage of those are *real* … perpetrated mostly by Moslems or black persons. The rest, and probably a majority, are hoaxes perpetrated by leftist God-haters with Jewish ancestors.

    “14.5 percent were anti-Islamic (Muslim).”
    Most of these will be hoaxes perpetrated by Moslems.

    Sharp intake of breath.

  69. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Let’s say I pick 150 Christians, 1 Buddhist, 1 Muslim, 8 Agnostics, and 6 Atheists from the general population.”

    I made a mistake in this analysis. The link to my blog provides the graphs and corrected analysis. I tried posting image links directly here, but was unable to do so. I guess it’s one of the WordPress settings being used on this blog.

  70. Ilíon says:

    Now, take a deep breath and calm down: truth won’t hurt anyone … well, except those with a vested interest in using lies to advance their agenda.

    Haven’t you *seen* by now that “hate crimes” are almost always hoaxes perpetrated by the alleged “victims” themselves?

  71. Ilíon says:

    I guess it’s one of the WordPress settings being used on this blog.

    It could be WordPress itself, irrespective of any configuration our Host has chosen. For example, I’ve long noticed on multiple WordPress blogs that if one submits a post containing a link to a Blogger blog/post, even if the link is merely in one’s handle, one’s post goes into some bit-bucket limbo: WordPress says it has been posted, but it never appears.

  72. Dhay says:

    Derek Ramsey > The link to my blog provides the graphs and corrected analysis.

    Which are impressively clear.

  73. Derek Ramsey says:

    “Which are impressively clear.”

    Thank you.

    Contrary to club’s assertion that this is just a lame attempt at bashing atheists, the detailed analysis shows two groups that are disproportionately represented: atheists and Islamic extremists, the latter being the worst by a small margin. Club (and others) should be very concerned about the rise in atheism and Islam and the decline in Christianity. As science-minded individuals, based on demographic changes we predict that mass shootings will likely increase in frequency over the next decade.

  74. Thank you very much for this insightful and interesting post. I have recently published a post on my blog about the school shootings in America. My perspective comes from someone living outside America looking in at the crisis and what my opinion is. If you have the time I would be very interested to hear your thoughts and opinions on my article! Thank you 🙂

  75. Dhay says:

    Derek Ramsey > … atheists and Islamic extremists the latter being the worst by a small margin.

    At risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, a caution: the Pew figures that I myself have been using for the proportions of Muslims and Buddhists in the US population are each 1%. Clearly those are rounded figures, which before rounding might have been anywhere between 0.5 and 1.5, ie a potential three-fold variation. I couldn’t find the raw data from which to get a more precise figure, and found that Page 3, ‘Methodology’, reports that with the numbers sampled there’s a potential sampling error of up to ± 1.0 percentage points; so that Pew 1% for Muslims and Buddhists is 1% ± 1.5% (or somewhere in a range from minus 0.5% (cough, yes I know) to 2.5%.)

    Then there’s how the disproportion is calculated, eg (as I did it while checking) by dividing the number of incidents (and killings) per group by their percentage representation in the population (to get incidents (and killings) per percentage point) and comparing that with the Christian figure: dividing by a number possibly ranging from minus 0.5% (cough, yes I know) to 2.5% yields not one firm value for the disproportion but a wide range of possible values for Muslims and Buddhists, one end of which is off the scale.

    There’s a less wide (but still considerable) range for the possible values of disproportion for atheists.

    But what we can pin down is the lower bounds of the range of possible values: using the 2019 (highest) percentages for Muslims and Buddhists (1%) and adding the 1.5% possible error (ie use 2.5%), ditto for atheists (4%) (ie use 5.5%) and use the 2019 (lowest) percentage for Christians and subtract the 1.5% possible error (ie use 63.5%) – using the figures most favourable to non-Christians we can calculate the lower bounds of the disproportions, as compared to Christians:

    Atheists: incidents 40 x ; killings 64 x (x Christian values)
    Muslims: incidents 38 x ; killings 59 x
    Buddhists: incidents 13 x ; killings 9 x
    Agnostics: incidents 5 x ; killings 4 x
    Christians: incidents and killings 1 x (baseline)

    That is, in each case the disproportion in incidents and killings for each group when compared with Christians.

    Summary: the disproportion of incidents and killings by atheists and Muslims is, as Derek Ramsey has shown, shockingly high; although taking into account possible rounding errors and the sampling error yields a range of possible values for each group and a great deal of uncertainty as to what each non-Christian group’s ‘correct’ disproportion might be, we can at least fix the lower bound of each group’s disproportion; the lower bound – the actual disproportion of mass-shooting incidents and killings by atheists and Muslims is at least that much – is also shockingly high and many, many times the proportionate values for Christians

  76. Ilíon says:

    thelevinelowdown:…. about the school shootings in America. My perspective comes from someone living outside America looking in at the crisis …

    But that’s just the thing: the “crisis” is entirely manufactured by the leftists to try to scare Americans into giving them the power of life-and-death over us.

  77. You don’t think there is a gun crisis in America?

  78. TFBW says:

    I gather that the parts of the USA with the biggest gun problems are also the ones with the tightest gun control, like Chicago, so if there’s a gun crisis, it’s probably the effect of excessive violation of the Second Amendment on the part of law-makers. However, the overall trend for violent crime in the USA has been a steady decline since the early 90s. I’m not sure why you’d be claiming a “gun crisis” under these conditions, unless you’re letting sensational reporting drive an emotional response rather than a fact-based one.

    You do seem to have some sort of constitutional crisis coming to a head, though. We’ll see how that plays out.

  79. Ilíon says:

    You don’t think there is a gun crisis in America?

    The people who assert that it is a “crisis” that “Three-in-ten American adults (30%) say they personally own a gun, and an additional 11% say they live with someone who does” are the same people who assert that the American police forces purposely murder black Americans. … And their “solution” to both these alleged “crises” is to disarm the citizenry, so that only criminals and government bureaucrats have guns.

    Doesn’t it strike you as a curious fact that people who are always hyperventilating about this or that “crisis” always propose to “solve” all the “crises” in the very same way: by brow-beating everyone else into surrendering the power of life-and-death over ourselves to them?

    As is said of the climate “crisis” — “I might be inclined to take the climate hysteriacs as being sincere if they *behaved* as though they believed their own hysterics

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/22/facts-about-guns-in-united-states/

  80. Ilíon says:

    TFBW:I gather that the parts of the USA with the biggest gun problems are also the ones with the tightest gun control, like Chicago, so if there’s a gun crisis, it’s probably the effect of excessive violation of the Second Amendment on the part of law-makers.

    Another way to put that is —

    The parts of the USA with the biggest gun problems are also the ones with the [longest run of control by one particular party, in general, and leftists, in particular], like Chicago, so if there’s a gun crisis, it’s probably the effect of excessive violation of the [Constitution-as-a-whole] on the part of law-makers.

    You do seem to have some sort of constitutional crisis coming to a head, though.

    That does seem to be true of the entire Anglo-sphere.

  81. TFBW says:

    That does seem to be true of the entire Anglo-sphere.

    Well, Australia seems to be relatively stable for the moment. The UK has a genuine constitutional crisis going, to be sure, and Canada is leaning in the general direction of one. It’s not just the Anglosphere, though: Hong Kong is a shambles, the Yellow Vest protests in France have been going on for a year now, Spain hasn’t been able to form a majority government in ages, Italy has issues, and the list goes on. Bizarrely turbulent times.

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